Bear tank in need of help.

[CS]

Hello guys,

I'm a long time lurker of this forum. I'd really like to say thank you to everyone that makes this an enjoyable place to find information. I'd also like to thank Emmerald for all of his hard work on the lists.

I'm really in need of assistance, I'm really about ready to give up on bear tanking.. and I'm hoping you guys can help me avoid that.

http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=11&tal=0000000000000000000000000000503232132322010353120303310511203500010000000000000000000 is the build I'm running. I'm using the glyph of Maul.

via wow-heroes, I have a 2581 gear score. I mostly gem pure Stam, but have some Agi+Stam gems as well. I use Rawr, don't folow it's recommendations 100% though.

Where I'm having problems is tanking heroics. I'm really ready to give up being a tank because of this.. I can tank 10m/25 ToC, and other raids just fine, but find myself having an real issue in heroics.  I assume for old heroics I just need to take off some of my gear, as I find myself rage starved and unable to pick things up before the DPS start in (and enrage is already on CD, VH is by far one of the worst for this since you can't keep it moving quickly). What do you guys find youyself removing in these sitatuions if you find yourself in them?

The next issue I'm having is in the new heroics. I'm having a real issue keeping things under control when you get for instance the add's in the four corners, and one in the center, or the firebringers? that are split up. Worse of all, is HoR.. where adds keep coming in seperately and it's hard to get even aggro on them.

I'm unfortantly not experienced in pre-wrath, which could be I just don't have the experience required to handle these situations. but up until the last several patches I could tank heroics all day long without issues.

For AOE fights, trying to hold aggro, I swipe/maul spam.. I am not hit capped, nor am I expertise capped.
29414 armor, 38.2k health, 161 hit rating, and 34 expertise, is the stats I believe you'd want to know. Is the expertise/hit really causing an issue? if so, why? it didn't before, and doesn't during raids. and again, I have no problems in raids, even without tricks of the trade, or misdirect. I easily keep aggro, in fact usually have to stop the whole rotation when other tanks are trying to pull off of me. I easily do 2k+ dps depending on what we are fighting and usually end up being one of the top DPS.

Sorry for the long post.. I could really use some help here before I just give up on feral tanking all together.

[Rakanik]

I'm not sure exactly what problem you're having.. from your description I am assuming that you are losing agro on the heroic trash in the pull.

The main difference in raids is probably that you've got more buffs and your raid group is more experienced in a cooperative environment - I've found that PuGs vary about 50/50 on my server between experienced players and 'just hit 80' noobs

As a tank in heroics it is you responsibility to lead the group, directing CC at the awkward mobs, marking mobs and telling the group 'kill skull, then aoe' or whatever your preferred strategy is.

If you know all that already then there's a few buttons to remember...

1. Don't Panic - loss of agro may be momentary (ok it's not a button, but I think too many tanks panic the moment someone else gets threat - most folks can take a hit or four from trash even in heroics)
2. FFF - in bear form it does a decent chunk of damage and can pull a loose mob back to you, this should be used every cooldown for the extra threat anyway.
3. Growl - if you've not got Glyph of Growl then you might be missing growls occasionally, I don't have it and don't have a problem though.
4. Feral charge - gets you to the mob quick, plus the stun gives you that extra moment to get it back on you.
5. Challenging Roar - when it really hits the fan, just get them on you, you'll soon have rage.
6. Demoralizing Roar - doesn't have a threat component, but at least the mobs will hit your group a little less hard.
7. Infected Wounds - you've got 3/3 here... if you can cycle through the mobs and get them all with the debuff then again you are reducing their damage potential against your group.  Maul and Mangle both apply infected wounds, Swipe does not.
8. Berserk - it's not just for cats.... allows you to switch swipe spam for mangle spam, which has the added benefit of adding infected wounds.

Also remember that it is only your job to build agro on the mobs, and keep them off the healer.  The DPS should be adjusting their attack behaviour and using threat clearing cooldowns to ensure that they don't pull agro.   Unless we're on a boss I don't really mind if we lose one of the DPS to a mistimed series of crits on the mob that's not the primary target.

Last thing to mention is to remember to manage the groups of trash into tight bundles by using corners and LoS blocking tricks to make them come over to you - but warn your group first so that they don't open up too early.

Sometimes success of a group in a heroic will really depend on the group makeup - for example, in ToC I prefer a shammy healing me and too much melee DPS can really suffer badly.

I'm sure others will have advice too, if you can let us know exactly what the problem is (mages always get agro on X part of Y instance, for example) then we can give more specific advice.

[Helistar]

Some random comments:

- stats and talents look ok.

- in the old heroics dump tanking gear and use full threat gear (i.e. cat enchants/haste, str arpen rings, etc.).  The incoming damage won't change a lot, but th outgoing damage will go up significantly.

- it's the DPS's job to control their aggro: all classes have threat reduction/reset, they should learn to use it.  Mages and rogues in particular have to bear full responsibility for getting themselves killed since they have a ton of ways to save their asses.  People assume that since it's just "old heroics" they can AoE even before the tank has pulled, and are then surprised when they get torn apart.  Telling them "I'm not a paladin, I don't have consecrate" can help at times

- for trash, plate DPS can tank them, so you can let them "have some fun" and taunt back only if their health seems to go too low.

- the new heroics, HoR in particular are another matter.  The group of casters spread out: mark the damned teleporting add in the middle and ask people to focus it, it's a major pain.  For the casters, just switch targets.  You hammer for 4-5 seconds one, move to another while swiping, repeat.  In the time you move around the DPS won't be able to regain aggro.  In HoR: it all depends on your group.  You can go LoS pull in one of the alcoves and tank everything, just expect some very serious incoming damage on waves 4 and 9, expecially if you have multiple melee mobs.  If the healer is not good and well stuffed he may be unable to keep you alive.  DPS should focus and NOT AoE, healers 1st, rogue 2nd, then whatever.  CC is very welcome, hunter's freeze traps and ret paladin hammer of something-which-stuns are great.  DK pulling casters in melee range helps as well.  In PoS the worst are the caster packs, tell people to interrupt as much as possible, since there isn't much you can do for caster damage and you'll take insane damage if they don't interrupt: this, apart from reducing your damage also reduces the DPS aggro and makes it easier to pick up everything.

- use the tank advantage: the new LFG tool has clearly shown that there is a major shortage of tanks, so remember that it's them needing you more than you needing them, as long as you're reasonable they'll listen.

[Polynices]

You should link your actual character. We can see talents that way but also see your gear.

Make sure you aren't using Maul too much. It's only for when you have tons of rage which often is not the case in heroics. So stick with swipe spam, throwing in mangle when the cooldown is up.

Make sure to tab between targets frequently. Swipe may hit everything but by tabbing you will hit more targets with your melee swings (aka white damage) as well as that mangle. If you have rage for maul then the tabbing means you hit 2 different targets extra hard each time. This is the best way to keep threat on a pack -- lots of tabbing between them all.

With casters that don't want to gather, it works to just strafe between them and smack each of them with mangle/maul and also FFF on ones that you aren't right next to. It gets a bit hectic but if your DPS have any self-control it can go okay.

Marking one target with a skull and encouraging DPS to focus on that one (even if they are also AEing) can help a bit too since you can focus on getting extra threat on that one while also doing swipe and maul. Once it dies you should be ahead on threat for the rest of the pack.

Good luck!

[Maulrush]

I second the suggestion to use DPS gear, if its decent.  Mix in some of your best DPS pieces.  Expertise and hit pieces are great for aggro.  DPS gear helps rage generation a lot.  A dirty little trick is to hit your sit button while rage-starved (against trash, don't try on bosses).  You'll get crit by the next hit which is a nice rage boost.  This is all dependent on having a healer that outgears the instance; I always check him out as soon as he zones in. 

The number one single-target aggro problem that I see bear tanks have:  Maul.  You need to engrain a habit to stop Mauling when rage is low, but Maul furiously every time it is available when you do have the rage income.  The button should be perma-highlighted or you'll miss a Maul.  Maul is tremendous threat-gen but I see too many bears (and warriors w/ their equivalent) slack off on using it. 

Charge/Bash is extremely useful.  Don't hesitate to drag a pile of mobs somewhere else, not only does it leave it obvious which mobs aren't locked on to you, but it slows the DPS some so you can get some control.  It often has a nice side-effect of making it painfully obvious who is attacking the wrong mob.

Don't stay locked onto a mob until its dead.  At about 1/3 or 1/4 health, if the DPS on your target is solid, switch to the next target and build up a threat lead.  DPS should finish the previous target without peeling it, and even if they do peel it, it won't last long. 

It also helps to watch and see how your group is DPS'ing.  If its mostly AoE, which I see most frequently, you need to tab-target and stack up blows on all the mobs, rather than build it up on just one.  I tab, queue up swipe/maul, wait for maul to hit, and tab/repeat, using Mangle when its up.  With Glyph of Maul this spreads the Mauils all over.  If the DPS is mostly single-target, then concentrate on one guy and let Swipe hold onto the rest.

On the pull, head into the mobs and turn around.  Not only does this turn the mob backs to your melee DPS, it allows you to look back at the party and see any runners you missed that are headed for the ranged.  Growl + FFF is a good combo to pull them back.

Good luck!

[CS]

Thanks for the input guys. I've glanced over everything so far, and appreciate the feed back. I'm currently at work and unable to really go over it and reply at the moment. I've got a raid immediately after work, but will probably reply after that.

I didn't link my gear, because it almost always changes (3 sets, got to love being a druid, healer, feral dps, and tank set). In fact I just looked to see what was up because I forgot what I logged out in last night and it's my healer set.

from memory, I have:
4x Conqueror's (helm, gloves, pants and chest)
Fervor of the Protectorate
Spaulders of the Snow Bandit
Cloak of the Shadowed Sun
Bracers of Swift Death
Reclaimed Thunderstrike
Idol of the Corrupter
Belt of the Twilight Assassin
Acidmaw Boots
Clutch of Fortification
Signififed Ring of Binding
Darkmoon Card: Greatness (agi)
The Black Heart

I have 2x15agi/15stam gems, and the rest are gemmed pure Stam. Enchants are generally Agi, unless it made sense to go with Stam (fur lining is one of these), mongoose on weapon.

I haven't moved up to t9 just due to not having much luck with Trophy drops. I really don't care much for the t9 itemization over the t8 gear. If I was having threat issues in raids, I'd certainly move up faster. I've got well over 400 emblems of triumph at this point, so I certainly could purchase the upgrades if it made sense. I'm currently waiting to make Knightsbane, just because I haven't decided how to continue forward.

[Medler]

I occasionally have problems with the initial part of the pull myself sicne pug DPS often open up with AOE immediately.  Like others have said for older heroics, swap out for some pure DPS items to help with threat.  I have actualy tanked many of the older instances in Kitty gear and even in Kitty spec without any problems.  If the DPS starts pulling off you early, ask them to give you 3-5 secs to get control or ask them to focus fire down a target to mark first.  That should give you ample time to generate threat on all targets with swipe, maul, and mangle.

As for the newer heroics (HoR being the most challenging IMO).  Make sure your DPS knows to give you a few seconds to round up the trash.  I usually mark up a caster target for them to burn down immediately while I grab control of the rest.  Also make sure you always position yourself in front of everyone so you get that initial agro and don't have to chase trash around.

[Fuzzyeti]

Thanks for asking for help on tanking. The replies have helped me out also. I have gotten to point that i don't tank heroics. I started playing when BC first came out and did the BC heroics when CC was an absolute must. It was 6 months into WoTLK before i seen a sheep! I am going to use the "kill skull then AoE" method from now on. I haven't seen a lot of ferals playing anymore and it kinda makes me sad.

[daxi]

There still some bears around, atleast on my server, most of em lare like me ...no pug hc runs, can't se why one should bother with ppl that dont know any thing about game mecanics & think recount /dps meters are their god in wow.

[Emmerald]

I haven't seen a lot of ferals playing anymore and it kinda makes me sad.

I must confess that I'm currently without a Feral spec...

At some point last summer, I started doing a bit more PvP. Given how massively unsuccessful I was as Feral, I went to Resto and immediately found myself much more valuable as a team member. Since the healing set became my best set, I also started using the gear in guild raids and started picking up Resto raid gear. I still love being a Feral, but currently my both specs are Resto, one for raids and the other for PvP.

Frankly, as much as I respect skill being a part of WoW, I do think that personally the Cat "rotation" is a tad bit too complicated, while Bear tanking is a bit simple. I think the former sort-of made me try Resto because I found it difficult to provide meaningful DPS in raids. It was partly gear, partly the complex rotation. I think one component less would be great, such as Mangle refreshing Rake duration (e.g. through a Glyph). I don't think a change like that would trivialize Cat rotations in any way, but would reduce the concentration and addons needed to maintain all debuffs.

To note, I have immense respect for those people who've mastered the Cat rotation and deliver massive DPS!

[Helistar]

Frankly, as much as I respect skill being a part of WoW, I do think that personally the Cat "rotation" is a tad bit too complicated, while Bear tanking is a bit simple. I think the former sort-of made me try Resto because I found it difficult to provide meaningful DPS in raids.

Personally, as much as I agree that the cat rotation is complex, I'm more than happy with it, and I take a lot more pleasure in dpsing as feral then when I dps with my arcane mage, which is basically a two-button-look-at-one-proc spam (ok I'll grant you that if you really want top dps you need to know when to use your CDs and how to manage mana, but even a simple 4x Arcane Blast + 1 x Missiles provides decent dps).

As for tanking, I see the lack of a "toolbox" as a motivation to interact with people: what I mean is that in a raid setup you will have classes which can provide functionality which as a bear tank is missing (compared e.g. to a warrior), so a part of the raid must became a "extension" of your character, which is controlled not by pressing buttons but by asking the right people to do the right stuff (and maybe reminding them at the right time ).

[Jaddar]

 

I occasionally have problems with the initial part of the pull myself sicne pug DPS often open up with AOE immediately.

I used to also, until I whisper the healer to run out and I let them die while using survival instincts to get out myself.  Most of the time this works well, sometimes you lose a dps, but I would rather have a lower dps that knows how to let the tank get agro before going all nuclear on 4 mobs.

[Medler]

I occasionally have problems with the initial part of the pull myself sicne pug DPS often open up with AOE immediately.

I used to also, until I whisper the healer to run out and I let them die while using survival instincts to get out myself.  Most of the time this works well, sometimes you lose a dps, but I would rather have a lower dps that knows how to let the tank get agro before going all nuclear on 4 mobs.

That is kinda evil...  I usually give DPS one warning.  They do it again, I let them die.  Usually by the time we clear the first 3-4 pulls, they get the picture.

[Alfador]

I occasionally have problems with the initial part of the pull myself sicne pug DPS often open up with AOE immediately.

I used to also, until I whisper the healer to run out and I let them die while using survival instincts to get out myself.  Most of the time this works well, sometimes you lose a dps, but I would rather have a lower dps that knows how to let the tank get agro before going all nuclear on 4 mobs.

That is kinda evil...  I usually give DPS one warning.  They do it again, I let them die.  Usually by the time we clear the first 3-4 pulls, they get the picture.

I don't give them any warning. I do my best to keep aggro... if the dps pulls a mob, they keep it. "You spank it, you tank it" is the rule, and I need to save my Growl cooldowns for if the HEALER pulls aggro. >:3 They generally learn after one death; I guess dps on our battlegroup are swift learners.

[Maulrush]

I make it a game to see how low the DPS guy can get healthwise before I taunt.  Letting them die slows things down unfortunately, and it stresses the healer because some end up feeling responsible.  I've seen too many of these jokers have no clue what happened and turn around and blame me or the healer for letting them die, and I hate wasting time on runs explaining what they are doing wrong.

With problem DPS'rs I like to start marking up skulls on the next few pulls and comment in party chat "So xxx knows who to DPS"  If you don't have leader, just ask in party chat for the leader to mark up such'n'such for xxx.  It doesn't delay the run much and calling out the DPS for a little redface-time is the only way some will learn.