3.3.3 PTR - Mangle news!

[Phalk]

Time to theorycraft, brothers!

From MMO-Champion:

Mangle: The debuff from this talent now lasts 60 seconds, up from 12 seconds.

From WoW-Forums (PTR Datamining):

Glyph of Mangle: This glyph now provides 10% increased damage done by Mangle instead of increasing the duration of the debuff.

Some math done by Reygahnci on the WoW-Forums (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=23307930926&sid=1&pageNo=16):

Multipliers:
SR = 1.3
Mangle (Shred) = 1.3
RaT (Shred) = 1.2
Crit = 2.0
Predatory Instincts: 1.1
Crit meta = 1.03
Savage Fury (Mangle) = 1.2

Shred:
(2.25 * x + 743) * 1.3 * 1.3 * 1.2 =
4.563 * x + 1507

Shred Crit:
(2.25 * x + 743) * 1.3 * 1.3 * 1.2 * 2.0 * 1.1 * 1.03 =
10.34 * x + 3414.86

With 50% crit, we can work out Shred's average damage per cast:
((4.563 * x + 1507) + (10.34 * x + 3414.86)) / 2 =
(14.903 * x + 4921.86) / 2 =
7.4515 * x + 2460.93

and now we can work out the average damage per energy:
(7.4515 * x + 2460.93) / 42 =
0.1774 * x + 58.5936

Mangle:
(2.0 * x + 634) * 1.3 * 1.2 =
3.12 * x + 989.04

Mangle Crit:
(2.0 * x + 634) * 1.3 * 1.2 * 2 * 1.1 * 1.03 =
7.06992 * x + 2241.16464

average the damage:
((3.12 * x + 989.04) + (7.06992 * x + 2241.16464)) / 2 =
(10.18992 * x + 3230.20464) / 2 =
5.09496 * x + 1615.10232

average damage per energy:
(5.09496 * x + 1615.10232) / 34 =
0.14985 * x + 47.50301

Shred vs. Mangle (DPE):
Shred: 0.1774 * x + 58.5936
Mangle: 0.14985 * x + 47.50301

================================
====== New Glyph of Mangle ========
================================

Proposed Mangle:
(2.0 * x + 634) * 1.3 * 1.2 * 1.1 =
3.432 * x + 1087.944

Proposed Mangle Crit:
(3.432 * x + 1087.944) * 2 * 1.1 * 1.03 =
7.776912 * x + 2465.281104

Average damage:
((3.432 * x + 1087.944) + (7.776912 * x + 2465.281104)) / 2 =
(11.208912 * x + 3553.225104) / 2 =
5.604456 * x + 1776.612552

Average Damage per Energy:
(5.604456 * x + 1776.612552) / 34 =
0.164837 * x + 52.253310

Shred ADPE vs. Proposed Mangle ADPE:
Shred: 0.1774 * x + 58.5936
Mangle: 0.164837 * x + 52.253310

TL;DR:
Mangle (glyphed) will get MUCH closer to Shred's overall damage per energy; though Shred will still be bigger damage and cost more... Mangle-spamming MAY end up being a viable option in 3.3.3 for many druids who choose to Glyph and Spec into it.

Awesome or not?
If his math is right, I'll seriously consider a manglespam build for PvE.

[Maulrush]

Er...  don't see any calcs there on Shred's free, crittable Rip ticks via Rip glyph.  I think Mangle glyph was meant as a bone tossed to the PVP'rs.

[Phalk]

Er...  don't see any calcs there on Shred's free, crittable Rip ticks via Rip glyph.  I think Mangle glyph was meant as a bone tossed to the PVP'rs.

The amount of 'casts' I lose because of the positioning requeriment also isn't accounted for. I, by experience know I lose a lot of damage because of it.
Sometimes I can get higher dps by manglespamming even nowadays depending on the latency (since I don't live in the US, it's usual to play with 400+ ms) because of the extra combo points to work with.

[Morghan]

I'm torn between the change, but I'll deal.

I feel it is simplifying a very fun spec to play.

[Helistar]

Er...  don't see any calcs there on Shred's free, crittable Rip ticks via Rip glyph.  I think Mangle glyph was meant as a bone tossed to the PVP'rs.

I agree.  It may be viable in a combat where you know you'll not be able to keep the positioning requirements, but otherwise it's not +10% which will change anything in the optimal "cycle". I've run a quick-and-dirty simulation with a random profile of mine (which is not at arpen hardcap, but not far), and I have DPR 280 for mangle and DRP 450 for shred, so even with the +10% the priorities will not change.

Hmmm numbers are very off from the values given above.  Have mangle and shred been changed?  The constant parts are 566 and 666 for the highest rank, not 634 and 743.

Re-edit: it looks like simulationcraft already supports the P333 model, I'll see if I can cook up a sim of shredspam vs manglespam during lunchtime.  I'll just replace the glyphs shred->mangle and use mangle instead of shred in the action list (removing the rip extension completely).

[Helistar]

Ok, well.... whatever DPR is, it's not what it looks, actually the two values are a lot closer as the calculation shows.

I've run the simulations and the result is interesting: mangle-spam IS viable.  As an example, my theoretical DPS in the current configuration is 11689.  Switching to mangle-spam (with the rules indicated above), only lowers it to 11031.  As much as a 600 dps loss is significant, the advantage of relaxing the positioning requirements may cover it in some fights.  In particular I'm thinking about the many-adds fights, where positioning is a nightmare and stuff just dies too fast to make rip interesting (= no shred rip extension).  Needless to say, PvP falls exactly in this scenario

Additional notes:
- the sim is for a cat almost at arpen cap (1300ish), but using cryptmaker (= seriously lower crit%).
- attacking is still done from behind (= 26 expertise => 0 dodge/parry)
- due to the shorter rips, FB becomes even less relevant in total dps (4.4% -> 1.9%).  FA talent points are then probably better spent elsewhere.

[RareBeast]

Definitely - I always found Faction Champions a terrible fight as I had a lot of trouble being able to see which way they were facing and certainly got a lot of "You must be behind the target" messages.    All the adds in the Lady Deathwhisper fight are another good case.   Assuming you are keeping Imp.Mangle in your spec (I think I might drop it personally), it is very cheap to just carry around a stack of shred glyphs and a stack of mangle glyphs and adjust accordingly.

[Cortano]

I think the change is very good; it will keep cat DPS more consistent.

For leveling / PvP / soloing, the mangle glyph is pure win. When the expansion hits, we will all be using it.

For bears, I think the glyph looks reasonable. Extra damage is always useful, and the defensive glyphs are weak. Not a choice everyone will make, but its an option for many.

[Alfador]

There's another situation in which manglespam is, I have found, VERY useful.

The beginning of a fight.

Since mangle uses less energy than shred, regardless of the fact that you're doing less dps, it will help you get Savage Roar and Rip up and running faster to be building combo points that much faster, and THEN start shredding like you're up against the Ninja Turtles.

My 25 man group is struggling with Lana'thel, and with the usually-static positioning in the ground phase I've got the opener down very well: Rake FIRST, as the beartank we've got will have Mangle up within seconds. Then Mangle till I've got either 4 or 5 combo points, roar, then keep Mangling up to 5 again, hit Rip, wait for Lana'thel to come back from biting someone (it's never me, always a caster--one time it WAS me only because the lag was so bad we wiped within a minute), Shred until I'm at low energy, blow Tiger's Fury and then hit Berserk and Shred like a rock star.

Since I have 4T10, I keep Rake up with the same diligence I do Rip and SR, and thank the raid leader for granting me a feral tank so I don't have to worry about keeping Mangle up too (though the 3.3.3 change in that regard had me dancing in the streets, I tell you). Blowing Berserk early when I'm not bitten isn't a waste because it'll cool down before the fight's over, and by that time I'll either be a vampire or have a bite incoming, plenty of time to get heavy on the dps. (It's also at the final bite phase that we blow Bloodlust.)

Okay, so I think I got a little distracted there. Point is, I find myself more and more using Mangle at the start of the fight to reduce the ramp-up time it takes for me to get down to serious deeps.

[Helistar]

My 25 man group is struggling with Lana'thel, and with the usually-static positioning in the ground phase I've got the opener down very well: Rake FIRST, as the beartank we've got will have Mangle up within seconds. Then Mangle till I've got either 4 or 5 combo points, roar, then keep Mangling up to 5 again, hit Rip,

I've not changed my standard opener for lathanel, I do mangle+roar+shred to 5 (with TF)+rip, then relax and let energy build up so that I can berserk after the bite and with my energy high enough.  I try to avoid TF+berserk to take advantage of the extra weapon damage from TF which gets erased by berserk.

Since I have 4T10, I keep Rake up with the same diligence I do Rip and SR,

I think that a rip-extending shred remains better DPE even if you have 4T10, in any case it's possible to juggle timers so as to have the full +3 rip extensions and keep rake.

Going back on subject: for me the big advantage of the patch is that I won't care anymore if a manglebot is around, since now the "cost" of refreshing mangle becomes negligible.  For shred-spam improved mangle also becomes irrelevant, so I can free up the points for something else.

EDIT: major error above!  The opening should read mangle+SR+RAKE+shred to 5 CP.

[Polynices]

That's silly. Mangling is worse than shred at any time you are behind the mob, including at the start of fights. In 4T10, rake once, savage roar, then shred away (assuming a bear or arms warrior will get mangle/rupture up for you). Multiple mangles is lower DPS.

[Maulrush]

I don't think its too silly Poly, he's trading some early Shred damage for Mangle's superior point generation.  Before the first Rip, Shred isn't getting its bonus Rip damage yet anyway (although its still better than unglyphed Mangle).  I'm just not sure that an earlier Rip is really much different damage-wsie than the damage lost from mangling instead of shredding.

Alf, why the 5 point SR to start the fight though?  Wouldn't you want a 1 or 2x SR up right off the bat, and just refresh it after Rip is up?  You say mangling gets SR and Rip up faster, but a 5pt SR is just delaying your Rip.  A 5xSR certainly makes for a cleaner start with less timer juggling, but your point seemed to be to get a faster Rip.

[RareBeast]

It has been shown many times through theorycraft and simulations that the best way to start the fight is either: -

(1)  Mangle, SR, Rake, Shred to 5 pts then Rip    or.....

(2)  Rake, SR, Mangle, Shred to 5 pts then Rip


The reason the Rake & Mangle are more or less interchangeable is that the first tick of Rake is 3 seconds after you hit it, so by then you have already mangled.    Using Mangle any more than that early on is a DPS loss - not a big one by any means, but still a loss.

[Maulrush]

Yes, but that theorycraft is pre-Mangle glyph.  For a Mangle-glyph build, I wonder if Alfador has the right idea.  Shreds don't have their full oomph until Rip is up (assuming glyph-Shred was not dropped for g-Mangle).  So its possible that substituting 'Mangle to 5 pts' for Shreds in the openers above is a faster way to your first Rip, since Mangle is superior CP's per energy.  Once Rip is up I'd assume Shred is superior. 

I suspect the result is a trivial increase or maybe even a total wash - the 110% Mangle's are still less DPE than a 100% Shred, so you lose some damage in the run-up, but getting in extra Rip ticks into a fight probably covers that loss.

[RareBeast]

The trouble with that is that you are using the mangle glyph which means you are losing the benefit of one of the other glyphs (each of which is a significant DPS increase over the mangle glyph).  I can see the odd time where the mangle glyph might be useful - such as PvP or crazy fights like Faction Champions where I personally have a lot of trouble staying behind the mobs.    Considering I intend to take the points out of Imp.Mangle when this change goes live, it becomes even less feasible.

Don't get me wrong, the difference between any "startup" rotation is tiny so it really doesn't matter much at the end of the day.   But then when we will spend an extra 100-150 gold on an epic gem over a "blue"gem just for a couple of extra stat points then it is all about the sum of all the "tiny" increases that makes it all worthwhile.